Dead queen, questions

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Barfdog
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Dead queen, questions

Post: # 22809Post Barfdog
Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:02 pm

Alright so I've had a Veromessor Pergandei queen since around April. She reared two workers and everything was going good. I ended up moving them to a founding formicarium because they were running out of water quickly. Let them move themselves into the nest and brought a small clutch of brood with them. They've been settled in for awhile and I've given them around 15 or so fruit flys over the last three weeks, always had a sugar water tube connected, they've been regulating trash and the queen even laid another clutch of brood.

Checked this morning and shes all curled up in the middle of the chamber. Has water + care from her workers, Inside temperature(Using a temp laser, heating cable runs at 93.5 degreesF and is a nice distance from the formicarium) is 81 degrees consistently throughout the chamber they're in. Could a small temp change in the night cause this to happen? They had everything from Honey in their outworld to the occasional superworm I would cut up so they can get the juices + many many fruit flys. Did I miss something important? What factors can cause a queen to die like that?
Keeper of:

One M1ABRAMS TANK AKA Camponotus Laevigatus Queen

Idahoantguy
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:48 am
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Re: Dead queen, questions

Post: # 22811Post Idahoantguy
Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:28 pm

I'm not sure I'm a whole bunch of help here but I'll give it my best... I recently caught a tetramorium queen that was, or seemed barely alive. I've had her for probably 3 or 4 days now and I keep checking on her. I put some honey in her test tube setup to see if that would perk her up but she hasn't eaten it. I've checked on her pretty frequently and she is actually still alive! She hasn't come out of fetal position but she still still moves when I check on her. Are you sure she is actually dead?
Hope this might have helped a bit! Good luck! :)
Keeping:
Tetramorium immigrans x2

Anything but tetramorium please :cry:

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Barfdog
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Location: Phoenix Arizona

Re: Dead queen, questions

Post: # 22814Post Barfdog
Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:17 pm

Idahoantguy wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:28 pm
I'm not sure I'm a whole bunch of help here but I'll give it my best... I recently caught a tetramorium queen that was, or seemed barely alive. I've had her for probably 3 or 4 days now and I keep checking on her. I put some honey in her test tube setup to see if that would perk her up but she hasn't eaten it. I've checked on her pretty frequently and she is actually still alive! She hasn't come out of fetal position but she still still moves when I check on her. Are you sure she is actually dead?
Hope this might have helped a bit! Good luck! :)
Now that you mention this I thought I did see her antennae moving. As well as the workers moving her around now. It's not looking to good regardless. I just wanna know what might have happened, possibly not enough food choices or something.
Keeper of:

One M1ABRAMS TANK AKA Camponotus Laevigatus Queen

AntOblivion

Re: Dead queen, questions

Post: # 22829Post AntOblivion
Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:46 pm

You said she only had two worker? Well you don't want to move your ants into a formicarium until they have around 20 workers. Even though she had help it's very possible she died of stress due to the small amount of workers and moving... Also the temperature change could have played a large role in her death

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Barfdog
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Re: Dead queen, questions

Post: # 22832Post Barfdog
Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:09 pm

AntOblivion wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:46 pm
You said she only had two worker? Well you don't want to move your ants into a formicarium until they have around 20 workers. Even though she had help it's very possible she died of stress due to the small amount of workers and moving... Also the temperature change could have played a large role in her death
It's a founding Formicarium, so it's for founding queens. Weeks even went by after I had moved them. I'm aware they need to be larger in number for a regular formicarium but this is a 4x4 very small formicarium

https://tarheelants.com/collections/founding-formicaria-1/products/mini-hearth

Here's the formicarium she was in so you can see for yourself it isn't a big chamber at all.
Keeper of:

One M1ABRAMS TANK AKA Camponotus Laevigatus Queen

AntOblivion

Re: Dead queen, questions

Post: # 22834Post AntOblivion
Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:12 pm

Barfdog wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:09 pm
AntOblivion wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:46 pm
You said she only had two worker? Well you don't want to move your ants into a formicarium until they have around 20 workers. Even though she had help it's very possible she died of stress due to the small amount of workers and moving... Also the temperature change could have played a large role in her death
It's a founding Formicarium, so it's for founding queens. Weeks even went by after I had moved them. I'm aware they need to be larger in number for a regular formicarium but this is a 4x4 very small formicarium

https://tarheelants.com/collections/founding-formicaria-1/products/mini-hearth

Here's the formicarium she was in so you can see for yourself it isn't a big chamber at all.
My bad xD There's the dyslexia setting in. Anyways like i also said the temperature change could have played a role. My apologies again xD

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Barfdog
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Location: Phoenix Arizona

Re: Dead queen, questions

Post: # 22836Post Barfdog
Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:18 pm

AntOblivion wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:12 pm
Barfdog wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:09 pm
AntOblivion wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:46 pm
You said she only had two worker? Well you don't want to move your ants into a formicarium until they have around 20 workers. Even though she had help it's very possible she died of stress due to the small amount of workers and moving... Also the temperature change could have played a large role in her death
It's a founding Formicarium, so it's for founding queens. Weeks even went by after I had moved them. I'm aware they need to be larger in number for a regular formicarium but this is a 4x4 very small formicarium

https://tarheelants.com/collections/founding-formicaria-1/products/mini-hearth

Here's the formicarium she was in so you can see for yourself it isn't a big chamber at all.
My bad xD There's the dyslexia setting in. Anyways like i also said the temperature change could have played a role. My apologies again xD

Now worries, I'm also doubting that it was temperature because of the heat cable nearby as well as all my other colonies are fine. As well as it wouldn't have been anywhere close to even 70F In my room, it's always mostly hot in my room due to the AC vent being blocked.

I'm curious though, so since queens normally can't digest protein does that mean that giving fruit flys was only for there brood? Do they not benefit from protein and need other choices?
Keeper of:

One M1ABRAMS TANK AKA Camponotus Laevigatus Queen

Theantguy13

Re: Dead queen, questions

Post: # 22841Post Theantguy13
Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:32 pm

From my experience, their diet should not have affected it unless there was a sudden change in what you fed them prior to the queen going into her "trance" (ill call it a trance because as mentioned by you previously, she isn't dead, yet...).

The day before she went into the "trance" did you change her diet, or did you notice unusual behavior? Did she seem inactive, or did the workers seem to be taking extra care of her as if they thought she was injured?

I had a similar experience with one of my many Solenopsis Xyloni queens, she had around 5 workers, and was in a test tube. I fed her with segments of a mealworm, and a drop of sugar water on a piece of tin foil. One day she just curled up and looked dead. It turned out she was being undernourished, so I fed her some more sugar water, the workers gave it to her and she was fine. I ended up releasing her regardless, but she seemed fine.

And in response to your statement saying that queens cannot digest protein, they don't eat the solid food, but digest the juices that are protein rich, that the workers gather from the prey insects, that is why most ant keepers pre-crush their insects, which exposes the juices which become more readily available to the ants.

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Barfdog
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Location: Phoenix Arizona

Re: Dead queen, questions

Post: # 22852Post Barfdog
Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:53 pm

Theantguy13 wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:32 pm
From my experience, their diet should not have affected it unless there was a sudden change in what you fed them prior to the queen going into her "trance" (ill call it a trance because as mentioned by you previously, she isn't dead, yet...).

The day before she went into the "trance" did you change her diet, or did you notice unusual behavior? Did she seem inactive, or did the workers seem to be taking extra care of her as if they thought she was injured?

I had a similar experience with one of my many Solenopsis Xyloni queens, she had around 5 workers, and was in a test tube. I fed her with segments of a mealworm, and a drop of sugar water on a piece of tin foil. One day she just curled up and looked dead. It turned out she was being undernourished, so I fed her some more sugar water, the workers gave it to her and she was fine. I ended up releasing her regardless, but she seemed fine.

And in response to your statement saying that queens cannot digest protein, they don't eat the solid food, but digest the juices that are protein rich, that the workers gather from the prey insects, that is why most ant keepers pre-crush their insects, which exposes the juices which become more readily available to the ants.
Okay, it's been very consistent, mostly fruit flies. Thanks for your lengthy response packed with good information. The only thing I can think of is the occasional Mealworm I'd throw in but they've always been hooked up to a sugar water test tube as well as honey always available. As well as 15-25 fruit flies over the past few weeks.

(They're dragging her out of the nest now so I'm pretty sure she's totally dead, no movement.) Can I boost my other Veromessor Queen or would they have to be a 'poly' species. I'm also worried about boosting them because putting them in at 50F in the fridge + the fact that they might kill the other queen worry's me. I don't want these workers to live there life motherless so it would be amazing to do my first boost. Any Suggestions?
Keeper of:

One M1ABRAMS TANK AKA Camponotus Laevigatus Queen

Theantguy13

Re: Dead queen, questions

Post: # 22856Post Theantguy13
Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:05 pm

I don't know much about brood boosting, or even worker boosting. From what I've heard, under very specific circumstances should you ever give already eclosed workers to an established colony. I really don't recommend it, as it could lead to their demise.

As for the "dead" queen, she could still be alive, I would probably give a drop of sugar/honey water to the workers and see if they bring it to her, and if not, she is probably dead. I know what it feels like to lose a colony, believe me.

I had a solenopsis xyloni colony which I attached to an Omni nest, they got stubborn and would not move in for some reason (never found out why) and they eventually succumbed to a nasty looking yellow mold that was overrunning their tube. I actually found out because they dragged the now dead queen all the way to the outworld of the nest...

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