13°C for Messor?

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UnrealSparks
Posts: 108
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Location: Turin

13°C for Messor?

Post: # 54347Post UnrealSparks
Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:19 am

I know I should keep Messor Barbarus at around 15°C during hibernation, but would 12.5-13.0 °C still be ok?

Would this temperature be good also for Pheidole Pallidula and Camponotus Barbaricus?
Keeping the following species:

- Messor Barbarus
- Pheidole Pallidula
- Camponotus Barbaricus
- Lasius Niger
- Lasius Flavus
- Lasius Emarginatus

ClashOwenBash
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:58 am
Location: Oxfordshire, England

Re: 13°C for Messor?

Post: # 54351Post ClashOwenBash
Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:31 am

UnrealSparks wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:19 am
I know I should keep Messor Barbarus at around 15°C during hibernation, but would 12.5-13.0 °C still be ok?

Would this temperature be good also for Pheidole Pallidula and Camponotus Barbaricus?
All sounds good to me
Hibernating Lasius Niger, Lasius Flavus, and Myrmica Rubra. Zzz..

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UnrealSparks
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:45 pm
Location: Turin

Re: 13°C for Messor?

Post: # 54352Post UnrealSparks
Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:22 pm

Alright, thanks for the reply!
Keeping the following species:

- Messor Barbarus
- Pheidole Pallidula
- Camponotus Barbaricus
- Lasius Niger
- Lasius Flavus
- Lasius Emarginatus

JoeHostile1
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:51 am
Location: Canada
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Re: 13°C for Messor?

Post: # 54366Post JoeHostile1
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:25 am

I have a Messor colony sitting between 8C -10C and out of all my colonies they are the most active ant at that temperature. In fact they are still able to panic when I open the fridge and shine a light on them to see how they are doing. That tells me the temperature is not cold enough for them to properly be in hibernation. Since my other ants can barely barely move. And when they do it is a slow motion crawl.

I’m not going to lower the temperature, but they are still active enough to take food into the nest. So I will have to keep my eye on them more than the other ants.

I know you read somewhere on the internet that Messor hibernates at 15C, I read that too. Didn’t really believe it when I read it and now that I have Messor actively moving at 8C I certainly don’t believe it.

The 15C is really suspicious to me. Every ant hibernates at 8C - 10C except for 1 species? Which apparently hibernates at 15C while all the other ants are still running around. Maybe the species won’t lay eggs below 15C or brood development stops, but as far them entering diapause at 15C I don’t buy that.

Note I have Messor acciculatus. Not Messor barbarous.
Keeping:
Tetramorium immigrans * Lasius Neoniger * Lasius Claviger * Messor Aciculatus * Myrmica Rubra * Camponotus Novaeboracensis * Camponotus Turkastanus * Pheidole Pallidula

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSfFtn6RegZ3F1NdS1g08NA

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UnrealSparks
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Location: Turin

Re: 13°C for Messor?

Post: # 54389Post UnrealSparks
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:22 am

You're definitely making a good point. I mean, I know Messor species live in hot areas, but for example here in Italy, even if the temperature can get over 40 °C in the summer sometimes, it still can reach sub-zero during the winter (two years ago it even went as low as -11 where I live :shock:). So yeah, why wouldn't they hibernate in the same conditions as the other species?

In my case I wanted to be extra careful, so that's why I asked. Mine has already stopped laying eggs when they were at around 18 °C, but as you mentioned, they are still active and responsive even at lower temperatures. :roll:

Oh, and I read you're also keeping Pheidole Pallidula. I guess you're hibernating them at 8-10 °C too?
Keeping the following species:

- Messor Barbarus
- Pheidole Pallidula
- Camponotus Barbaricus
- Lasius Niger
- Lasius Flavus
- Lasius Emarginatus

JoeHostile1
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:51 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: 13°C for Messor?

Post: # 54399Post JoeHostile1
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:24 am

UnrealSparks wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:22 am

In my case I wanted to be extra careful, so that's why I asked. Mine has already stopped laying eggs when they were at around 18 °C, but as you mentioned, they are still active and responsive even at lower temperatures. :roll:

Oh, and I read you're also keeping Pheidole Pallidula. I guess you're hibernating them at 8-10 °C too?
It’s important to not take anything I say as a fact. Only my opinion based on my own personal experience and based on things that I have read that I actually believe. The best thing you can do is monitor your ants and adapt based on the particular behaviour of the species and specifically the colony you are working with.

I live in Canada and I have seen how insects act when they are in hibernation. For example when I was a kid we always had a wasp nest in the shed. In the winter time I would open up the wasp nest to see what’s going on in there. Well the wasps would be moving in slow motion. They couldn’t fly or get aggressive, but they could walk very very slowly. This is at like -20C. This is what insect hibernation looks like.

I believe we could be hibernating the ants at 0C or below, but we just don’t want to take the risk. All we need is for the ants to enter the hibernation state where they can barely move. This way we know they aren’t consuming food or expending energy. If we can get the ants to enter this state at 10C than there is no need to go down to 0C. Even though I think they can go below 0C.

I was nervous putting my Messor down to 10C. First I put them at 15C and I didnt notice a change in their behaviour at all. Now at 8-10C they are still active and moving, which means they are consuming energy therefore they need to consume food. And after checking last night there is like 10 of them in the outworld. I want them to stop moving so I don’t have to worry about feeding them or them starving during the winter. Perhaps this acciculatus species is very very adapt at dealing with the cold - not sure.

And yes, the pheidole are at 8-10C and doing just fine.
Keeping:
Tetramorium immigrans * Lasius Neoniger * Lasius Claviger * Messor Aciculatus * Myrmica Rubra * Camponotus Novaeboracensis * Camponotus Turkastanus * Pheidole Pallidula

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSfFtn6RegZ3F1NdS1g08NA

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UnrealSparks
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:45 pm
Location: Turin

Re: 13°C for Messor?

Post: # 54415Post UnrealSparks
Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:32 pm

JoeHostile1 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:24 am
UnrealSparks wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:22 am

In my case I wanted to be extra careful, so that's why I asked. Mine has already stopped laying eggs when they were at around 18 °C, but as you mentioned, they are still active and responsive even at lower temperatures. :roll:

Oh, and I read you're also keeping Pheidole Pallidula. I guess you're hibernating them at 8-10 °C too?
It’s important to not take anything I say as a fact. Only my opinion based on my own personal experience and based on things that I have read that I actually believe. The best thing you can do is monitor your ants and adapt based on the particular behaviour of the species and specifically the colony you are working with.

I live in Canada and I have seen how insects act when they are in hibernation. For example when I was a kid we always had a wasp nest in the shed. In the winter time I would open up the wasp nest to see what’s going on in there. Well the wasps would be moving in slow motion. They couldn’t fly or get aggressive, but they could walk very very slowly. This is at like -20C. This is what insect hibernation looks like.

I believe we could be hibernating the ants at 0C or below, but we just don’t want to take the risk. All we need is for the ants to enter the hibernation state where they can barely move. This way we know they aren’t consuming food or expending energy. If we can get the ants to enter this state at 10C than there is no need to go down to 0C. Even though I think they can go below 0C.

I was nervous putting my Messor down to 10C. First I put them at 15C and I didnt notice a change in their behaviour at all. Now at 8-10C they are still active and moving, which means they are consuming energy therefore they need to consume food. And after checking last night there is like 10 of them in the outworld. I want them to stop moving so I don’t have to worry about feeding them or them starving during the winter. Perhaps this acciculatus species is very very adapt at dealing with the cold - not sure.

And yes, the pheidole are at 8-10C and doing just fine.
Ok, no worries, I'm just trying to get as many sources as possible to decide whether or not I should make some changes. I even contacted an ant store and they said they hibernate theirs at around 15 °C still (both Messor and Pheidole).

Mine are currently at around 14 °C in my garage, because I don't have a colder place other than the fridge, and I notice they are still foraging a bit, not too much though. I also keep some Camponotus Barbaricus with them but I heard of some Camponotus species being able to survive even at -20 °C temperatures, so that's why I'm still a bit insecure.

While whenever I check on my others colonies in the fridge they are always pretty still (but like the wasps you mentioned) so I'm sure I'm doing the right thing with them.

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience! :)
Keeping the following species:

- Messor Barbarus
- Pheidole Pallidula
- Camponotus Barbaricus
- Lasius Niger
- Lasius Flavus
- Lasius Emarginatus

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