Frustrating Laws (Hoping for Heated topics and debate)

If a topic gets too hot, we move it into this section. Keep posts clean, objective, and free of hating/shaming/cursing/bashing. Failure to comply will merit posts or topics to be deleted.

Moderator: ooper01

User avatar
Barfdog
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:32 pm
Location: Phoenix Arizona

Frustrating Laws (Hoping for Heated topics and debate)

Post: # 14757Post Barfdog
Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:06 pm

So I'm in California for the weekend and I'm leaving tomorrow. It just sucks I can't bring a colony back with me to Arizona. I know the damages it causes and the reasons for not being able to, but when the same species that are being sold on the GAN project in California are found in my area in Arizona, It's just a total bummer it can't be done. I wanted to know what your opinions are about the matter, when the same species that is found in your area also resides with a Gan Farmer in another state and it's frowned upon taking it home. :x :x
Keeper of:

Veromessor Pergandei (2 colony's)
Brachymrmex Patagonicus (Many)
Camponotus Laevigatus (2)

AntsMclama
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:45 pm
Location: Maryland

Re: Frustrating Laws (Hoping for Heated topics and debate)

Post: # 14758Post AntsMclama
Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:08 am

Yea, the whole queen cross state lines thing is a problem. But its there for a reason.
But.. you aren't doing it for the GAN project , you are at CA for some time and you are just bummed about if you find a queen if you can't bring it home?

User avatar
Batspiderfish
Posts: 2385
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:47 pm
Location: Maine

Re: Frustrating Laws (Hoping for Heated topics and debate)

Post: # 14760Post Batspiderfish
Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:18 am

People don't talk about this often, but remember that species names are only vague placeholders that constitute our best knowledge of ants, mostly based on the worker's morphological features. The advent of genetics has opened our eyes to many mistakes and assumptions we were making in our taxonomy (take Tetramorium sp. E, for example, representing four species that we thought were all Tetramorium caespitum).

All ants everywhere are evolving to face unique environmental challenges; they may look the same and have the same name (for the time being), but their genes are a little different, and that is worth protecting.
If you enjoy my expertise and identifications, please do not put wild populations at risk of disease by releasing pet colonies. We are responsible to give our pets the best care we can manage for the rest of their lives.

User avatar
Serafine
Posts: 428
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:23 am
Location: Germany

Re: Frustrating Laws (Hoping for Heated topics and debate)

Post: # 14763Post Serafine
Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:42 am

Last thing I've read is that Tetramorium sp. E consists of over 20 subspecies, most of which can only be distinguished by the shape of their male genitals and some even only by genetic analysis.

Also don't worry, the laws will soon be obsolete when RIFA is the only ant species left ;)
"We should respect all forms of consciousness. The body is just a vessel, a mere hull."

Join the Antkeeping Discord chat: https://discordapp.com/invite/ZXFTVzD

AntsMclama
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:45 pm
Location: Maryland

Re: Frustrating Laws (Hoping for Heated topics and debate)

Post: # 14764Post AntsMclama
Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:54 am

Serafine wrote:Also don't worry, the laws will soon be obsolete when RIFA is the only ant species left ;)
I don't think the fire ant (i assume this is [R]ed mported [F]ire [A]nt) has the ability to live everywhere :) but... evolution is scary!

JohnyDL
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:44 pm
Location: Stoke on Trent

Re: Frustrating Laws (Hoping for Heated topics and debate)

Post: # 14774Post JohnyDL
Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:39 pm

RIFA - You should also consider the idea of pandemics for ants it's not gaialogically good idea for evolution to produce only one species from competition even a hyperadaptive one like humans so if there's a virus or bacteria or parasite that appears it might be capable of accidentally eliminating the species the more dominating a species gets the more likely it is to happen, happens to us all the time though we have medicine and get lucky a lot too

Annoying laws - I think the whole state boundaries is a little lax to be honest it's about not contaminating one ecology with another but even in a state there are hundreds of smaller ecologies, I'm note sure if there are states with deserts, forests, grasslands and cropfields but ants for one under this law could be released to another without breaking the law and be far more ecologically damaging than from one village to the next over a state line. Something like a 100 mile radius from origin is the maximum that an ant can be moved by artificial means would be better all round maybe? Though it wouldn't help you take your ants on holiday it would be far more useful in preventing RIFA type problems

User avatar
Barfdog
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:32 pm
Location: Phoenix Arizona

Re: Frustrating Laws (Hoping for Heated topics and debate)

Post: # 14781Post Barfdog
Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:50 pm

I agree with a lot of things said here. I'm just in my way home from Cali now. Abother thing I keep thinking about is how diverse Arizona is, not just being the most diverse with Ants but regions as well. I guess thats exactly why the Ant population is so diverse here. Which in my mind justifys it even more.
Keeper of:

Veromessor Pergandei (2 colony's)
Brachymrmex Patagonicus (Many)
Camponotus Laevigatus (2)

SpeciesK
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:45 am
Location: Right Here--------v

Re: Frustrating Laws (Hoping for Heated topics and debate)

Post: # 16500Post SpeciesK
Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:58 pm

No one here has provided proof that any such law exists for transporting native ant species across State lines. The most anyone has come up with is needing a permit to transport foreign species like Red Imported Fire Ants, or official pest species insects (native ants are not listed), or a permit to import a foreign species of any kind from a different country. Where are these supposed laws prohibiting transporting native queens between States? Is it a well-meaning urban myth?
Someone please -prove- that any such laws exist for transporting native species and that it's not just something made up to prevent people from importing and trading foreign species. :ugeek:

User avatar
Batspiderfish
Posts: 2385
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:47 pm
Location: Maine

Re: Frustrating Laws (Hoping for Heated topics and debate)

Post: # 16506Post Batspiderfish
Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:35 am

SpeciesK wrote:No one here has provided proof that any such law exists for transporting native ant species across State lines. The most anyone has come up with is needing a permit to transport foreign species like Red Imported Fire Ants, or official pest species insects (native ants are not listed), or a permit to import a foreign species of any kind from a different country. Where are these supposed laws prohibiting transporting native queens between States? Is it a well-meaning urban myth?
Someone please -prove- that any such laws exist for transporting native species and that it's not just something made up to prevent people from importing and trading foreign species. :ugeek:
Nobody made anything up. It's the Lacey Act from the Department of Fish and Wildlife, the Plant Protection Act from the USDA, and numerous state laws involving quarantine of major ant pests like RIFA.
If you enjoy my expertise and identifications, please do not put wild populations at risk of disease by releasing pet colonies. We are responsible to give our pets the best care we can manage for the rest of their lives.

SpeciesK
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:45 am
Location: Right Here--------v

Re: Frustrating Laws (Hoping for Heated topics and debate)

Post: # 16518Post SpeciesK
Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:40 pm

I have no ants of any kind. I don't know anyone personally who has ants of any kind. :) I want to keep repeating that so people don't get confused over why I am even pursuing this. It is to separate what is real from what is perceived or assumed by people. I am after the truth whatever it is, however convenient or inconvenient it is to people. :ugeek:

I am working my way thru your list. Just in general, we are not talking about major plant pests like RIFA, an imported, non-native species, so your vague blanket statement about unspecified State laws dealing with them do not apply.

The Lacey Act deals with -importing- illegally acquired wildlife and plants for sale in the USA. It does not cover native species. And it does not cover legally acquired wildlife and plants in the foreign country.

So far, this only would possibly apply to importing queen ants illegally but not legally. It does NOT apply to native species transported or sold in the USA. :geek:

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest